endgame saving throws?

Newbie Gender: Age: 36 Joined: 24 Jun 2007

How high should your characters saves be by level 30? I'm looking for both PvP and PvM.

Harmless Gender: Age: 22 Joined: 30 Sep 2007

except to face spell DC @ about 40 from players sometimes

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:13 pm

Yeh, with 40ish saving throws u should feel quite safe...

Dungeon Master (NWN 2) Gender: Age: 27 Joined: 10 Apr 2007

There are few builds that will be able to stand up against max DC spells... those that can have to sacrifice a lot and those that don't make that sacrifice had better be quick with a mantle.

What do you guys think; Do we need to make it so that saves on rings is increased from +3 against one type to +5 against one type? I'd say do that and reduce or eliminate the +5 versus fire/cold/elec/etc

Below Average Gender: Age: 16 Joined: 20 Jul 2007

Imo the current system is fine.

Above Average Gender: Joined: 03 May 2007

I agree with you hatred. Caster dc's are going to be very high. I think builds need some help or else they waste all their feats on saves. 40's are very hard to come by with most builds.

Harmless Gender: Age: 22 Joined: 30 Sep 2007

no melee build can get high enough saves to even have a small chance and wasting feats for one additional +2 dont rly help. One Spell DC in the 40s, melee char dead. I think the max saves on rings should be increases and/or there should be stun/daze/hold/paralysis immunities for rings for melee characters.

*edit*
thats not only the problem on high lvls, also mid and lower lvls. I fought a warlock in the arena with mid range chars (he was about my lvl), he dispelled my speed buff and kitet me till I died with invocation that stuns me all the time cause I cant succed the save. I got him only one time near dead but with lucky rolls and crits. the problem is now, casters have all, high offensive and defensive capabilites (high saves, ac, concealment, DR, nasty offensive spells). melees have only offense and hp. higher hit dice means nothing if you are immobilized and cant do anything, melees should have atleast a 50% chance to succed a save.

Below Average Joined: 19 Nov 2006

If the goal is to focus on party pvp the current system is fine. Players can buff each other to +10 universal saves, +8 vs spells. With +18 to saves that tank is going to require a dispel before the 40 dc save or die is even a factor, which means the opposing mage has to pick his poison.

If the goal is one on one pvp then yeah, saves need a major boost otherwise max dc necro or enchantment casters will dominate tanks.

Imo balancing a game based on d&d, even one as heavily modified as DeX2, just isn't going to work if you look at it from the perspective of 1v1. The mage and cleric isn't supposed to just kill stuff, there are buff spells in the game for a reason: A fully buffed tank is a scary, scary thing but an unbuffed one is supposed to be pretty easy for a mage to kill.

Newbie Joined: 07 Sep 2007

sly_1 wrote:

Players can buff each other to +10 universal saves ...

How exactly is this done?

I agree with Hatred tho, with DCs getting so high there should be a bump in possible saves. I vote an increase on saves for those rings to +5. That would help with 2 saves, but what about the third? Are there any dropped items which increase a save or are we stuck on choosing which 2 we want crafted onto our rings?

Below Average Joined: 19 Nov 2006

ghettoGenius wrote:

sly_1 wrote:

Players can buff each other to +10 universal saves ...

How exactly is this done?

...

That number (+10) is actually by far not the highest possible buff to saves, but 2 common spells will get you there: greater heroism and superior resistance = +10 to all saves for a very long time. Throw a protection from spells on there for +8 to saves vs spells and your at that +18 I quoted. There's a whole host of other buff spells and effects that also boost saves but that's a quick and easy way to do it.

If you really broke it down I'm sure you could buff a normal tanks saves into the high 30's to low 40's across the board: it just requires teamwork and an actual balanced party. People look at this game from the perspective of 1v1 so much they just see dc's of 40 and go "OMG boost saves!" without taking into account the game already gives you a bunch of ways to do that already without having to increase saves on gear.

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:56 pm

Leave saving throws as they r now. With melee empowerment in MotB thats quite fair. Besides about max DC on spell is 40 so there should be very hard to get 40ish saving throw and b immune to that spell. And caster has to burn a lot of feats to get that kind of DC on spell. If everyone would have 35-40ish saving throws then there is no reason for making a caster at all..

Harmless Gender: Age: 22 Joined: 30 Sep 2007

filiphagno wrote:

Leave saving throws as they r now. With melee empowerment in MotB thats quite fair. Besides about max DC on spell is 40 so there should be very hard to get 40ish saving throw and b immune to that spell. And caster has to burn a lot of feats to get that kind of DC on spell. If everyone would have 35-40ish saving throws then there is no reason for making a caster at all..

lol no real reason to make a caster Smile

what is the reason to make a melee character then when u already have hard time to hit a caster with all the buffs and then u need to face uber high saves Smile

and the empowerment in MOTB for melees were the magic items in the single player game mostly which gave u a wide range of immunities. have u seen some epic items in dex lately? I havent. Have you ever played a melee character in pvp? You buff up with some scrolls, go out, see a caster, you run to him. First thing you see is a dispel/breach, then you are in range and try to knockdown the caster and miss due to uber high AC and concealment and the next thing you see is a save or die spell DC range of 35-40 depending on spell lvl -> you die. with epic spells it got worse, even if you have only one cast per day, it is still a guaranted kill (except on natural 20) against a melee character because you can reach dcs of 40+ easily. the melees cannot buff himself up to invincibility and throw quicken spell mantles like casters can. and why should a caster buff up his melee mate when he could use the spell slot better for himself. the meleeing guy wont hit anyway due to uber AC and concealment.

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:38 am

Uber AC on mages in MoTB??? U kiddin? Melee builds got 2 additional attacks and about 10 more ab, so dont tell me they wont hit. U want better saving throws? Take feats for it,or make a divine melee build. Items are fine as they r on dex.

Harmless Gender: Age: 22 Joined: 30 Sep 2007

filiphagno wrote:

Uber AC on mages in MoTB??? U kiddin? Melee builds got 2 additional attacks and about 10 more ab, so dont tell me they wont hit. U want better saving throws? Take feats for it,or make a divine melee build. Items are fine as they r on dex.

what feats do you take to have uber defense and offense? no one, just the one to max offense to kill stuff and still you have nasty defensive stuff.

Even with maxxed STR and Epic Weapon Focus it is hard to hit a caster with concealment and the last 3 iterative attacks of your bab progression are also more likely to miss due to lower AB. Even if you hit the caster, your dmg is freaking low because of nice buffs that grant damage reduction and without supreme power attack your dmg will be lost in the premonition spell which the caster will recast if needed. Elemental damage fades in energy resistance spells. Even if you KD the caster (loosing 1 attack in the round) you need to kill the caster in this one round which is impossible because when he stands up he will unleash a fury of nasty spells that you wont survive. also some caster builds are immune to KD (druids, stormlords) and to critical hits (druids, palemasters, basically everyone with iron body and stone body spell) and disarm wont hurt a caster anyway thus no need to mention. that means from my 6, 3 will miss most of the time, now I have 3 attacks that must pierce concealment/dmg reduction and do enough dmg to kill a caster in one round or its over.

even if melees are at disatvantage I dont care about it and will play one even if I die thousands of times to casters.
I will resist the caster hype Cool

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:51 am

Doh, u can take fortitude, will and reflex feats and epic feats to boost ur saving throw. With bigby and izzaks nerf Arcanes will have really hard time killing tanks now, especially when builds can get up to like 600 HP and casters didnt get more spells with epic lvls (only epic spells). Most likely Arcanes will have 50ish AC and good tanks should have about 55 ab so all that helps is concealment for mage. Sure that clerics and druids are way harder to kill by tank but there is no build that's great vs every opponent. Making melee char requires a bit more then just take scythe with crit improvements, wm lvls and hope for crit hit... There is much more combinations then just fighter/bard/rdd/wm...